Accucraft Casey Jr.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:55 pm

Its not the accuracy or appearence that matters its the performance. The Lilly Belle in Hartland looks great, and satisfying, but the performance needs improvement. The gears are always grinding in that engine which is why I never use it. I hope C.K. is a better performer, because Lilly has had too much gear grinding, and I might even sell it due to that problem. Is gear grinding a common thing on Hartland 4-4-0s?

CP173 · Post by **CP173** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:18 am

I'm not aware of any performance problems with Hartland's engines. I've been quite happy with the performance of the few I own. However, I don't really follow all the modeler forums, so I really wouldn't know about any other problems.

Chris, did you try contacting Hartland's support? Phil Jensen, who normally handles it, is a great guy and I'm sure he could give you the straight story on your gear grinding.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:54 am

Chris definitely call Phil Jensen to get new gear axles. Call him on (402) 571-2933 only on Tuesdays or Thursdays between 8am and 1pm central time. Dont call any other time.

Sometimes these 4-4-0s are assembled with the two power axles slightly out of sinc..ie cranks on both wheels not exactly in line. This causes the side rods to bind up a little, causing the gear noise from the stress placed on them. It occures when the assembly guys drop the wheels into the chassis and dont align the cranks on the front axle to the cranks on the rear axle properly (LGB need to watch the same thing). Almost immediately you get the gear noise, and sadly the teeth get distorted. When properly aligned with new gears these locos will run quiet every time, no exception. The axles need to be aligned to the exact tooth..not even 1 or 2 teeth out of sinc. The block in these locos I've found to be better than LGB.

My Lilly Belle would not run at all when I got it, gears were stripped from the wheel cranks being out of alignment...causing rod bind, causing the stripping...when the rear wheel crank faced to 12 oclock, the front axle was at 5 to 12..probably 2-3 teeth out of sinc. Phil sent me two axles and she was perfect after about 5mins of work..thats all it takes.

I know you'll probably ignore the above as usual, but maybe the info will be useful to other Hartland Lilly Belle owners who have a rough running unit. Never had this problem on the other Hartland products. The drive in these is and all of their 4-4-0s, 2-4-0s and 2-4-4ts etc are the same block and all are excellent.

David.

CP173 · Post by **CP173** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:14 am

Good info, Fletch. I'll make sure to pass that along if I hear any mention on gear grinding again.

Thanks!

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:54 pm

Thanks, I will give Phil a call tommorrow.

Post by **Steve DeGaetano** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:06 pm

CP173 wrote:
*sigh* I should write a FAQ on Disney railroad products.

I won't present the whole back story again, but suffice it to say, when you are making products that are sold THROUGH Disney, you get to choose "accurate" OR "affordable".

Please don't get exasperated, Michael! I avidly read all your posts on the subject, and fully understand what you're saying.

Here's what I'm trying to say:

While you state that you can have either accuracy or affordability, you certainly had both in the Casey Jr. ($300 is expensive, sure, but affordable; compared to, say $3,000).

The Casey Jr. was certainly a well-detailed and accurate model, faithful, with minor exceptions that you mentioned, like the pilot truck, with the original. The superstructure (and maybe the mechanism?) was not based on an existing model, but built--as it had to be--from the ground up.

The work to tool the molds must have been very expensive.

But it was done, and the model sold for $300.

Now, instead of doing the Casey Jr., with its limited (though vocal) appeal, why not the C.K. Holliday? Clearly the Holliday, accurately done, would have appealed to both Disney and the rivet-counter crowds.

You see, the same amount of efforts and funds could have been sunk into building an accurate Holliday from the ground up, and maybe sold for--yep--$300.

We're not talking brass here--that's clearly apples to oranges.

Did Disney commission this piece? Or did a devoted Casey Jr. fan base approach Disney? My guess is (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), the latter.

I have no training in marketing or manufacturing. But I've been around the model railroading (and Disney) communities long enough to know that--however lovable Casey Jr. is, and however devoted his following--that it was simply a mistake to create the model--a mistake that apparently cost Disney, and leaves numerous fans with no train to pull.

I believe this could have been avoided if the folks who presented this piece to Disney for consideration would have been more honest with themselves about the potential for mass appeal, or informed about the nature of model railroaders (in general--I know that there are folks who enjoy fantasy pieces. But as much as we'd like to believe otherwise, they're cleraly in the minority).

IDMT129 · Post by **IDMT129** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:29 pm

As a proud owner of all the above mentioned engines, I am sorry to hear that your Lilly Belle is not right, Chris. I own 3 Hartland engines. The engines are all sound, the palstic is high quality and their customer service is great. Most of my issues have been with the Marsh of all things, the side gold trim will not remain on the running boards. Hartland has always been there backing their product though. Please, call and have the problem fixed with you engine and then post what their reply was and remedy.

I would have liked to see the rest of the cars made for Casey Jr, though. A whimsy train is always a neat thing to run on the tracks and the daughter loves it. Mind you this coming from a guy who made Big Thunder in 'G' scale.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:41 pm

The only problem I had with Casey Jr. was just fixed. It was the fact it was on NMRANAM polarity Standards rather than the Common Large Scale Run. So last night, I went under the cover, switched the power pickups soldered on to the wires, switched one to the left, the other to the right, slapped the cover back on, and Casey now runs on the Common Large Scale Run. That problem is very easy to fix, just move the power pickups, and your in business.

Locoboy5150 · Post by **Locoboy5150** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:56 pm

Ah, so Casey Jr. likes to moonwalk while everyone else walks forward, huh?

My Casy Jr. just sits there on display so I've only test run it once when it was brand new.

CP173 · Post by **CP173** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:51 pm

While you state that you can have either accuracy or affordability, you certainly had both in the Casey Jr. ($300 is expensive, sure, but affordable; compared to, say $3,000).

I know this may sound odd coming from me, but the Accucraft Casey Jr. was too expensive at $300. To put this in perspective, the stainless and brass live steam FWRR engine was $485. Had Casey sold for $200 or less, we probably would be discussing the latest circus cars to be released rather than debating the merits of the engine.

The work to tool the molds must have been very expensive. But it was done, and the model sold for $300.

The molds were made in China, where they are much cheaper to produce than here in the States. (Side note: Absolutely NO sweat shop labor was involved. We paid to have an independent auditor verify the factory working conditions.) The molds for Hartland products are made here in the States, which factors into the base cost of their products.

Now, instead of doing the Casey Jr., with its limited (though vocal) appeal, why not the C.K. Holliday? Clearly the Holliday, accurately done, would have appealed to both Disney and the rivet-counter crowds.

Who says that it was an either/or decision? The Holliday is my favorite engine, and I've wanted to create one since 2001. The Park also wants to do so, but doesn't want to overdo Disney trains. They opted to wait a bit on the Holliday. But it's still going to happen, and Casey Jr. has no bearing on that.

Did Disney commission this piece? Or did a devoted Casey Jr. fan base approach Disney? My guess is (and you can correct me if I'm wrong), the latter.

Neither. Casey has always been one of Michael Broggie's favorite trains, and he discussed the possibility of making a G-scale version with Doug Hartwell, one of Imagineering's Senior Dimensional Modelers. (I hope he'll forgive me if I got his title wrong. In brief, Doug makes the amazingly detailed models of attractions before they are built.) When Doug agreed to do so, we approached the Company to see if they were interested. After we received a positive response, we went first to Hartland -- who politely declined -- and then several other manufacturers.

I have no training in marketing or manufacturing. But I've been around the model railroading (and Disney) communities long enough to know that--however lovable Casey Jr. is, and however devoted his following--that it was simply a mistake to create the model--a mistake that apparently cost Disney, and leaves numerous fans with no train to pull.

Naturally, I disagree. Even if there is just one person who now owns a Casey Jr and is happy with it, then it was not a mistake to make it. If one is looking for the primary reason that Casey didn't meet volume expectations, it is the pricing. Had this product been released for <$150 it would have sold much better than it did. (More than 400 sold at $300 each, so it's not a stretch to say that number would go up significantly if the retail were lower.) And there's no need to worry about Disney making money on this; while I can't disclose the exact numbers, the Company didn't lose money. The volume just didn't meet expectations.

I believe this could have been avoided if the folks who presented this piece to Disney for consideration would have been more honest with themselves about the potential for mass appeal, or informed about the nature of model railroaders (in general--I know that there are folks who enjoy fantasy pieces. But as much as we'd like to believe otherwise, they're cleraly in the minority).

"More honest with themselves"? "More informed about the nature of model railroaders"? While I believe you mean it well, this is a rather condescending statement. Even though there is always room for improvement, I have no regrets. The products that I have helped create have collectively sold over 5,000 units. A modest sum compared to many model railroad products, but it is indicitive of one thing: While we may not have pleased "everyone", we have clearly pleased some.

It's like Walt said: "I don't worry about pleasing the critics. I'll take my chances with the public."